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Nathan Gotsch: Thank you all for joining us. We're gonna wait a few minutes as people continue to filter in on the Zoom. I'm Nathan Gotsch, Executive Director of Independent Indiana, and really happy to have you joining us tonight.

I want to introduce our panelists. First is Will Conway. Will is the former National Organizing Director for the Forward Party. In that position, he set up over a dozen state parties around the country. He’s one of the leaders in the independent space. Really happy to have him here.

Will, thanks so much for coming. Why do you think what we’re doing here in Indiana is important?

Will Conway: Yeah, thanks. Can you hear me? Sorry about that.

Yeah, I’m excited to be here. I’ve been systematically destroying my résumé for about six years now as I’ve watched the American political structure collapse around us. For a whole lot of reasons, I think local efforts across the country to bring together independent candidates are by far the most important thing we can be doing as patriotic Americans. I’m incredibly excited for the work of Independent Indiana and to be connected to people like you. This is really fun.

Nathan Gotsch: Thank you. Our next panelist is Christopher Thrasher. Christopher is a national leader in the ballot access space and very involved in the independent movement around the country. Christopher, why did you decide to join us tonight?

Christopher Thrasher: I had the pleasure of working with you, Nathan, on the 2022 independent run for Congress. I have a long history working with ballot access, with independent and third-party candidates, really with parties across the political spectrum. I’m keenly aware of the difficulties that arise for independents and third parties just to get on the ballot.

It’s almost akin to having to run a marathon before you even get to the starting line with some state laws. Anytime a movement is working not only to allow more choices on the ballot, but is organized to break the stranglehold of the status quo, I’m a fan. I still work within the two-party system as a Republican, but I have an affinity for disruptors because the one thing we can all agree on is that something is amiss right now. Independent movements, and especially what you all are doing in Indiana, can only help fix the myriad problems we have. I’m very pleased to join in.

Nathan Gotsch: Thank you. Will, building on what Christopher just said — based on your experience with efforts to form new parties, do we need something to come outside of the two-party system to get us to a place where things work better again?

Will Conway: Yeah, I think so, for a couple reasons. The biggest is incentives. If you’re an elected official right now in either major party, it’s incredibly difficult to stick to your moral values. The biggest myth in politics is that the election is held in November. It’s actually held in the primary — sometimes at the convention. About 85% of elections are determined in the primary, not the general, and only about 10% of people vote in primaries.

So in almost every election, the people an elected official has to convince are primary voters, who tend to be party stalwarts. Couple that with the noise on social media, and the feedback loop for politicians comes only from the most partisan. The other 90% of the electorate is ignored. Yes, good people can come out of the major parties, but the headwinds are 80 miles an hour the other way. It’s really difficult.

Nathan Gotsch: Christopher, you’ve done signature drives all across the country. When you’re out talking to people, how do they respond when you’re collecting signatures for an independent?

Christopher Thrasher: It varies. Some places are more attuned to supporting independents. Vermont and Maine, for example, have independent U.S. senators. You can also tell quickly whether someone is highly partisan — sometimes they immediately become standoffish. In my experience, lately it tends to be more on the Democratic side, though it shifts over the years.

Some states are more even. In Massachusetts, for example, the thresholds are the same for everyone: 10,000 signatures for a statewide race, whether you’re a Democrat, Republican, or independent. But Indiana is one of the states where the skew is significant. Independents face requirements that are several times higher.

Nathan Gotsch: Can you talk about where Indiana fits into the national picture?

Christopher Thrasher: Indiana is closer to the restrictive side. To become a political party here, it’s tied to the Secretary of State race. Independents or new parties need tens of thousands of signatures, three or four times more than Republicans and Democrats, who only need signatures for Senate or governor. It’s a significant burden.

Nathan Gotsch: I can give you the numbers. Republicans and Democrats need 500 signatures in each congressional district — 4,500 total — though realistically you need about 7,000 to be safe. Independents, by contrast, need in the high 30,000s, which with the 33% cushion and an average cost of $15 per signature comes to $700–800,000. For congressional districts, Republicans and Democrats need zero signatures. Independents need around 4,000 per district, which is about $70,000. That’s why independents succeed locally but not in larger offices.

Will, from your perspective nationally, what lessons did you see from efforts like the Forward Party?

Will Conway: To my eye, the last new successful political party was the Republicans in 1856. Every attempt since then — Bull Moose, Reform, Green, Libertarian, No Labels, Forward — has gone top-down. They build a national bureaucracy and try to franchise locally, instead of starting hyper-local.

The GOP was built from the bottom up: abolitionists, Free Soilers, local movements that coalesced. That’s why I find Independent Indiana exciting. You’ve already got 52% of independents winning locally. The smart play is to build on that local success, improve communities, and then think about bigger efforts. The mistake is going straight to the top.

Nathan Gotsch: Christopher, people ask: why not just gather the signatures with volunteers? How realistic is it?

Christopher Thrasher: It’s possible, but incredibly difficult. Signature gathering burns out volunteers fast. It takes persistence and dealing with constant rejection. If any interaction takes longer than 45 seconds, you’re wasting time. You don’t have time to engage on issues; you’re just grinding for signatures.

Some states have open access laws that help. In Massachusetts, you can set up in front of a grocery store. In Indiana, you can be kicked out of a park. So without protections, it’s even harder. Volunteers burn out quickly, so once you hit a certain threshold, you need professionals.

Nathan Gotsch: So realistically, you need a professional firm?

Christopher Thrasher: Yes. Especially with tight windows and deadlines. Some states even raise requirements while shortening the time frame. It’s almost inevitable that serious efforts have to hire professional signature firms.

Nathan Gotsch: In your opinion, is there a good reason for these signature requirements?

Christopher Thrasher: Look at the history. Early elections had write-ins. The Australian ballot in the late 1800s created government-printed secret ballots, and states added restrictions. Many ballot access laws were passed specifically as incumbent protection. Georgia’s early laws were designed to keep Communists off the ballot. Tennessee today makes it easy for independents but very hard to form a new party. So yes, these laws are largely about protecting the two parties.

Nathan Gotsch: Polls say two-thirds of Americans want a new party. Why don’t we have one?

Christopher Thrasher: Restrictions, money, and culture. Polls often show independents doing well early, but momentum fades because of resources, burnout, and the “don’t split the vote” message from the major parties. The playing field isn’t level.

Will Conway: Everything Christopher said is right. I’d add cultural barriers. In other democracies, regional parties thrive. Here, people assume the only spectrum is Republican to Democrat. Independents are dismissed as “leaners.” And our first-past-the-post system creates the spoiler narrative. Ralph Nader and Jill Stein did lasting damage to third-party credibility.

Both parties spend heavily to reinforce that narrative. The reality is independents do win, but the belief that they can’t is deeply ingrained. Changing that narrative is crucial.

Nathan Gotsch: We’ve seen groups like No Labels get attacked before they even fielded a candidate. Why?

Will Conway: I worked with No Labels. Both major parties go out of their way to define any new effort as “the other side.” Republicans say you’re Democrats in disguise. Democrats say you’re Republicans in disguise. That destroys new efforts before they take root. The lesson for local efforts is: define yourself early, go on offense, and communicate clearly who you are.

Nathan Gotsch: Christopher, we have a question from Eric: maybe we need an equal protection case against straight-ticket voting?

Christopher Thrasher: There’s case law on ballot access, and some states have overturned straight-ticket voting. But in Indiana it would be very difficult to win in court. The more realistic path is lobbying the legislature. Straight-ticket voting is hugely damaging, and the states that still have it tend to also have the most restrictive independent candidate laws.

Nathan Gotsch: We’re close to time. To close, what gives you hope to keep working in this space? Christopher?

Christopher Thrasher: What gives me hope is that more people are paying attention. Across the spectrum, people agree something is wrong. More people understand that coalitions and cross-partisan efforts are needed. Independent Indiana is an example of building something positive for the state and the country.

Nathan Gotsch: Will?

Will Conway: Honestly, it’s people like you, Nathan, and everyone on this call. I’ve worked in Republican politics, then in independents. It’s been difficult and often unsuccessful, but I constantly hear from people around the country who want to try. Most ideas aren’t great, but some are. There are good people willing to take risks to fight for democracy. Nothing is more patriotic than that. That’s what motivates me.

Nathan Gotsch: That’s a great note to end on. Thank you, Will and Christopher, and thank you all for joining us. If you found value in this conversation, please share it. We’ll post the recording on our website and YouTube tomorrow and send a follow-up email.

As I’ve been signing off my emails lately: yours in democracy. Thank you and have a great evening.

Will Conway: Thanks all.

Christopher Thrasher: Thank you. Cheers everyone.